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Talk:October Massacre
=Massacre= "Massacre" That's a little much don't you think? J Andres 02:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC) :Please do not add NoR viewpoint in the introduction. Please add under the proper subheading already provided. 129.15.107.105 21:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC) ::Thats what it was, I George Sears have to delete my nation. And I was an openly jewish nation and attacked by germanic imperialists with nazi paraphenalia on all their names and profiles. The attacks were unprovoked and I had never attacked anyone ever and they just came and slaughtered me with nations more than twice as powerful as me. Same thing happened to other members of the SoL. They have also been attacking System 37 and unaligned nations in the same way. They just find small alliances to denounce and destroy. =Timeline= Okay, I disagree with the different timelines for the article. I think we can agree on what took place and put together a NPOV article. Please consolidate your timeline into a paragraph that follows conventions and I will add in other things in their proper places. This article stands to docement an event, not conflicting views of what happened. One thing happened, not three different things. J Andres 02:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC) :Looks like someone beat me to it. Looks NPOV now. Good article, congratulations on a collaboratve effort. =Rewrite= I have completely rewritten the article. Please discuss your complaints here before editing. Before, the majority of the article was really a rant by the SoL and had little outside input. Also, this article has been frequently targeted by former SoL members to try to add their voice. Listen. There really isn't a different story of what happened during the war. You got attacked, bottom line. Please don't go putting injustices in the body of the article. If you wish add them to the Aftermath section, but keep a Neutral Point of View! J Andres 11:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC) :This is entirely untrue. I consulted A number of known NoR and ICP members that have reviewed this article and approved. Sorry, I corrected a few mispellings of rogue, no offence but the fact i can change a mispelling for once is a dream come true. Ceasefire You left our blatent violations of ceasefire, continued attacks after the war. Racial slurs sent to george sears. Initial attacks Nordreich made the initial attacks. SoL did not attack NoR or any of their allies. You have POVed the article by implying NoR was justified in their attacks when they were the aggressors and that only nations attacked by Neo Siberia and Jeuno were unaligned nations. They were attacks not authorized by the SoL. Please don't rewrite this article until you have the facts. Please revert. continued attacks by NoR after the disbandment and peace You also have not included that for 48 hours after the disbandment and peace, George Sears continued to be attacked by NoR member Reich Zealand. Racial Slurs were also sent to George Sears by variouis NoR and TTF members. the MDP was fully valid The MDP was fully valid, Kaiser Martins asked (in his official announcement, if you would bother reading it before you edit this article!) the ICP not to get involved because martins thought the MDP was signed after NoR's initial attacks (another intelligence blunder) A few is a weasel word Many nations attacked, at least five. Five is a large number when compared to the population of SoL. Rather than using weasel words lets just say "at least five attacked without formal declaration" Lack of dipliomacy An important point is that NoR never approached us about the 2 members of our alliance who they cited as the primary reason for attacking. They simply attacked, they destroyed SoLs peaceful members. harshest attacks on the jews, and racial slurs the openly jewish nation, a previous member of Peace for the Jews, lead by George Sears was hit the hardest. NoR Nations never observed ceasefire with george sears, they continued to attack him 2 days after peace was declared. Both NoR and TTF members sent racial slurs to george sears containing comments about burning him in an oven. More unjustified edits This is only the tip of the iceberg. The original article (which I did not write) I edited to remove the POV nature. Now you have gone and destroyed my hard work. Please uphold encyclepedic standards! Justification Thank You for you responses to my rewrite. My original paragraph above sounded harsh looking back. The reason I rewrote the article was because before, it really was from the point of view of the SoL only and it used first person refrences as was not npov. I have added some of what you have said above to the article. And I hope we can find a neutral ground. J Andres 19:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC) Mainly the reason I rewrote the article was because the tone was sympathetic with the SoL. There shouldn't be that type of emotion in the article J Andres 19:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC) =The New Merge= My compliments to the mystery IP who merged them together. Meets the standards! I am currently working on getting numbers for the casualties by the way. J Andres 20:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC) :Thank you for the revert another unidentifiable IP, probably SoL. Yes Nordreich, the last edit doesn't really follow the definition of neutral. The current form is great because it is an equal ground. Any objections, please write them here. J Andres 21:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC) ::This is exactly what I was looking for. I actually had a draft very similar to this i was working on in Word. Please uphold this current NPOV version. Nice work. Solidusspriggan 04:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC) :::Glad we can finally agree on something J Andres 11:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC) Yay! = Casualty Data = The numbers for the casualties were taken from the NADC archives. Nordreich lost their info with the loss of their boards, so their data had to be extrapolated from the NADC info. J Andres 00:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC) falsification since aircraft weren't in the game when this happened...the stats have been falsified. Obviously the members of the other side of the conflict should be contacted to see if they have stats, because NADC seems to have some creative records. =November 9th, 2006= New Stuff. I am posting what changes I plan on making to this article. # Removal of "Questionable" from the initial reason for war "Questionable pretense." The definition of pretense already implies that there is some questionability to it. # Changing all alliance acronyms to full names. # Changing "Nordreich had begun attacks a week before." to "Some Nordreich members had begun before this declaration." # In prelude to war, "openly Jewish and pacifist economic stronghold SoL nation of the Sons of Liberty under the rule of George Sears." to "Jewish and economic stronghold Sons of Liberty Nation under the rule of George Sears." This edit will remove SoL sympathy # In October 30th, 2006, "Sons of Liberty Side" to "Sons of Liberty side." just a grammar fix Also, I am going to try to find references, and reference a number of the things in this article. J Andres 02:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Jewish? I added that this attack hihglighted the racial undertones of the conflict.There is no arguement wheter this is right or not, the article already states they attacked an openly jewish nation. However if NoR is going to throw a hissy fit about it, you can change it back, no big deal.--Thecrisis5 17:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC) :The reason I changed it back, was because the way it was worded made the scale tip in the SoL direction. The Racial aspect has already been developed and discussed in the article, adding it in other places disrupts the npov. J Andres 23:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC) ::The IP address that reverted the page without discussion here, will recieve a temporary (24 hour ban) J Andres 14:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC) :::The truth is that Nordreich continued to hunt george sears and rifka in multiple (both nations having their jewishness displayed in their nation profiles) across three alliances and three conflicts. Solidusspriggan 08:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC) =Removal of the Picture= Your caption said that Nordreich soldiers were killing civilians. This is your take on the event and not a fact, especially since soldiers cannot kill civilians. They can kill soldiers, they can destroy infrastructure (which arguably kills citizens), but not directly kill innocent civilians. This picture adds to the SoL point of view and not to anything else. Solidus I have noticed you have been working on your nations wiki article. No one will bother you there by the posting of this picture, but it doesn't belong here. J Andres 19:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC) :I find it disturbing that you have no respect for the massive number of civilians that lost their lives during the massacre. Why is an admin that was fighting in the conflict allowed to reside over its wiki page? There is a massive injustice here and it is slanting the article dramatically. Solidusspriggan 19:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC) :If you ask any random user which side the article is currently biases towards, they would have to say towards SoL. I have compromised with you guys and given you a lot in the article, and I reverted plenty of pro-nordreich edits a while ago to maintain the NPOV, the picture can be included, but not with a caption such as that. Even the title of the article is technically biased, but I haven't changed that. Like I said before, Civilians are not a part of the casualty listings. Also, in Nordreich's declaration, no mention of killing civilians was ever mentioned. Simply calling your citizens "innocent" is biased towards your views. The only picture on this page right now is that of a panzer moving in a field. This picture was included in the the declaration of war. You guys have to understand that neither side was right in this war. Nordreich did act as a "World Police figure," and likely decided to attack you for one reason. They were bored and wanted to have a war. I watched it from the NADC side. We saw that you guys were a small alliance (and therefore could be defeated), and a number of your members had launched numerous attacks against unaligned nations. I believe that the reason for most of us supporting the war, was that it would be something interesting, and to show some support for our allies, so we knew support would come in return when we needed it. Look at it from my eyes for a second. Jueno, the main person we saw declaring all the wars, was one of the main members fo your alliance. You guys weren't innocent either. Some of your nations (even if only 2 or 3, two or three out of eleven is a huge percentage) were practically rouge. You say that because I am an admin, I am slanting the article. Instead I am holding it at a modest slant in your favor. Take it or leave it. I hope the New Sons of Liberty works better than the old. Read through the article and you will find yourself agreeing that the article is already tilted to yourside. Nordreich did commit horrible actions against your nations, but they did have some justification, which doesn't make you innocent. J Andres 03:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC) :::I'm glad you have been a as reasonable as you have. However I disagree on a number of points, and the fact that the NoR regularly carries out these police actions (many of which take place on alliances more innocent than ours ever was) and NoR constantly carries out tech raids (the same thing a few of previous SoL members were doing that somehow warranted the destruction of the alliance). I don't need the picture there, I think the article is pretty NPOV with a slight slant to the NoR side. The picture I just happened to have for my page and figured I would enrich the page with some appropriate illustration derived from the Nanjing massacre, didn't see it as a violation of NPOV in the least, sorry if it was interpreted that way. Questioning the fascism cat tag Since the fascism tag has been removed and readded (rightfully I'd say, since there hasn't been any discussion to remove the tag), I thought it would be great to bring it up. Since solidus insists on having the category, I'll let him explain why it should be here, then future action regarding the tag can simply refer to this discussion. I personally feel that the category name itself is biased but I don't know enough so I want to hear more about it. -- Mason11987 (T - - -CN) 21:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC) ::I have a discussion on the Facism name going on at that category. Communism is to Leftism as Facism is to ???? J Andres 00:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC) :::rightism, also, Triumphal Cultural Nationalism (of the nordreich variety), nationalism in general. Also, I didn't insist on having the category, one of my friends at the university made it, however I support that decision. Also, it seems that someone has removed the fascist tag from the nordreich article. This is a blatent violation of factual accuracy. The Nordreich is radically nationalist, also their behavior on CN (both in the games and in the forums) is reminescent of 20th century RL fascists. Furthermore, if you ask the Nordreich, most of them will say outright that they are fascists. "nazi no, fascist yes" is common to hear from them. Check out the CN forums, there is good material for the wiki there, tons that supports my constantly challanged additions. I really am a reasonable guy, but I won't stand by while the truth is suppressed, especially not on this site which is supposed to be an archive of the factual history and function of the cyberverse. Solidusspriggan 12:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC) :You know what then my friend. Simply put in the NoR article the text. "Some members of NoR consider the alliance to be fascist", then put a link to the place where the NoR members state that. Then replace the fascist tag. The fact here is that information isn't being supressed (at least not by the admins here). We simply will not allow one group to roleplay the actions and positions of another. Since members of NoR are saying they aren't fascist (by removing the tag) I don't see why a member outside the NoR has any right to add that information in, unless they can prove it. I think that is perfectly reasonable. -- Mason11987 (T - - -CN) 17:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC) ::Umm, the massacre invovled two parties, I being a spokesperson for one of those parties have a right to add information to this article, which a SOL member started in the first place. If any action the nordreich has taken is fascist, this one is it. It was an unprovoked, expansionist nationalisitic, anti-communist attack, which fits all the facets of fascism, which i have laid out elsewhere. Solidusspriggan 01:15, 1 January 2007 (UTC) :::Based solely off of the alliances claim of being fascist, this should have the tag as long as the article continues to demonstrate how fascism itself is related to the topic (and not simply a trait of one of the involved nations). -- Mason11987 (T - - -CN) 03:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)